The Internet has evolved, or maybe devolved, into Hot Take Journalism. I just want to gauge your definition of Hot Take Journalism and whether that’s good as a sports society in terms of discourse.
Jemele Hill- Is hot take journalism more noticeable because people are actually having more hot takes? Or is it more noticeable because— let’s be honest and this is my frustration with the blogosphere— is that there’s a lot of nuanced conversations taking place like the kinds of ones we feel like we have, and other people too, but the hot take artists get all the headlines.
And so I’m like, are there really more hot take artists or is that what everybody is using to draw clicks?
Certainly, for sure, one of the questions that I hate being asked by younger journalists is ‘how do you get to ESPN?’ Or ‘how do you build a brand?’ That’s the last thing you should be concerned about.
And I do think we’re in a different age, unlike the one Mike and I came up as journalists, where the celebrity journalist has become a thing. We joke about us not being journalists anymore, but that’s very much in our training and how we approach things, even if we’re not in locker rooms or beat reporters anymore like we used to be.
But I do think that because there’s a lot more money in it, there’s a lot more fame in it, there’s a lot more celebrity in it, that there’s definitely a culture there of people who are loud and dumb and wrong. But I can’t tell them that their business isn’t working because people pay attention to it. People are clicking on those stories. People are blogging about what they’re writing about. And so I think it’s a little bit of both, to be honest. It’s not just the culture we’re in. I think they’re both feeding off each other, those paying attention to it and those writing it.
Michael Smith- Jemele and I, among the many things we have in common, is our shared love for the hip-hop band The Roots. We absolutely love The Roots. And I think Black Thought is the greatest MC of all time. That’s my opinion. I don’t understand why everybody doesn’t share that opinion. There are some people who think that Future is the greatest thing to ever hit music. And I like future, but I wouldn’t put him in the same category, with all due respect. I say that, but that doesn’t mean I don’t vibe to Future or I don’t turn it up when I hear a certain song.
What I’m saying is that I think hot takes are actually great. And it’s got a negative connotation to it, and sometimes understandably so, because sometimes it can be ridiculous. But as long as you understand that it has a purpose and you understand it for what it is, which is entertainment.
So I go back to Jemele talking about, we joke about that we used to be journalists. Full disclosure, sometimes I feel uncomfortable weighing in on the state of journalism because it’s been a long time since I’ve been a journalist. I’ve come to be at peace and accept what I am and I hope this doesn’t sound too arrogant, but I’m an entertainer. I’m here to entertain somebody. The E in ESPN stands for entertainment. ESPN serves a lot of different purposes. Some of us for information, some of us for enlightenment, other times it’s just for entertainment. Sports are entertainment. We don’t need to get into, like, Cam Newton dancing in the end zone. It’s sports, man! He’s having fun.
So Jemele and I on His & Hers while, yes, we try to have thoughtful, enlightening conversation, and hopefully informative, if we can. At the end of the day, we’re there to have fun and entertain people at home. We’re trying to brighten them up with what we like to call the best 60 minutes of your day.
Hot takes can be entertaining as long as you understand it’s a hot take. You understand what I’m saying? As long as you get, that’s just for barber shop debate or water cooler debate, or you’re just saying that for a reaction, that’s just for an argument, that’s all well and good when it’s not destructive or damaging. If it’s destructive or damaging, that’s when you gotta draw the line. We all know when that’s the case. But by and large, if you don’t like the hot takes, then get out of the kitchen. It is what it is and it’s here to stay.
Social media has given everybody a platform whether they’ve earned it or not. Back when Jemele and I were coming up, you either were on radio, on television or in print. And Jemele, I don’t know about you, but personally, we used to turn up our nose at the television and radio people because they weren’t in the locker room the way we were. They weren’t on the road the way we were. They were just filing their little stories or packages for the evening news or on the radio never being seen but always heard. And now we’re two of those people [laughs]. As much as we try to stay connected, we’re in our little bubble in our studio firing off our own version of hot takes.
But I prefer to look at it as just passionate discourse. And as long as you don’t take it too seriously and take it for what it’s worth, then I think we can all just kind of enjoy them and, as the case may be, laugh at them.
So the hot take has to be viewed in terms of context.
Michael Smith- Exactly. I mentioned Cam Newton dancing in the end zone. Titans Mom had a hot take and she put it in print and sent it to the editor [Jemele laughs] and that led to honest and thoughtful conversation about the double-standard that still exists between African American quarterbacks and white quarterbacks. So when people say we’re in a post-racial society and ‘it’s no longer black quarterbacks, it’s just quarterbacks, can’t we move past this race thing?’ see this woman writing this letter filled with coded language about a quarterback who did nothing different than his white counterparts do. So sometimes hot takes can not only be entertaining, they can actually be useful.
What are your thoughts on the past and the future of The Undefeated and whether you were approached to have a role in the project?
Jemele Hill– We had some discussions just about if there was anything that made sense for both parties. And I think The Undefeated, at least from what I’ve known about it, they kind of get this, the core of what they’re building, it probably won’t come from the people who already work there. Like people like Mike and I, and they understood this part of it. We’ve got this daily TV show to do. We don’t have a lot of time to assist in maybe more of an overt way.
Certainly, both Mike and I believe in the vision of the site. I thought hiring Kevin [Merida] was just an excellent hire. And I’ve talked to him a little bit briefly, nothing has been formalized but he knows I support the site and I support him and support what they plan to do. If there is something that makes sense between His & Hers and The Undefeated, I don’t think we would be opposed to do it. But much like, not just us but for anybody at ESPN, there’s not a whole lot of people at ESPN asking for things to do [laughs]. A lot of people have crazy schedules and we’re among them.
But I think the most important thing was, for people that were putting the site together for Kevin to understand that the internal support is there. Because I think the site is going to be a great success. And I think there’s a unique positioning that it could have that is nowhere else in sports media. And so I’m looking forward to whatever product that they launch, for sure.
Michael Smith: I haven’t had the direct conversations that Jemele has, but by extension I support the site in whatever way I’m asked to, or just from afar.
Honestly, the process that the site has been experiencing and some of the coverage and the difficulties that the site it’s experienced, I hope that it doesn’t take away from the mission and I hope it doesn’t leave a stain, if you will, on the reputation of it. And I hope the difficulties, and we all know what they are, and the transition and just some of the coverage that it’s received, I hope that doesn’t overshadow the work it will do. And I hope people still support it and can move past some of the initial hiccups. I hope that the story doesn’t become the site itself but rather the stories the site seeks to tell, if you know what I mean, and the voices that will tell those stories.
That’s my hope for it. That it gets past all the drama.
Jemele Hill- Or for that matter, get exhausted by it [the negative attention it’s received in the past]. Unfortunately, because of some of the issues in the transition, in the initial difficulties, the only time they heard about this site is associated with something negative or something that didn’t go right. That you don’t want people to check out of it before they give it a chance. And so like Mike, I really hope that stuff is kind of behind it and everything moving forward will be about how this site plans to position itself in a way that’s different, unique, engaging and entertaining.
Overall Goals For The Show Going Forward…
Michael Smith- World domination.
Jemele Hill- [Laughs] basically. We have a fire and a passion burning in us. We want this show to be the best show on the network. And I know that seems very broad and very general because nobody wakes up and says ‘Hey, I want to do a terrible show at ESPN.’
Michael Smith- And specifically both networks. Not just limiting to ESPN2.
Jemele Hill- Yes. Exactly. We see ourselves as somebody, as a show or tandem, that could reach the heights of a PTI, for example. That’s what we see in ourselves and know what we’re capable of. I think now that the show has truly melded to us and become us, our ceiling is as high as we want it to be. So y’all better get in on the ground floor now. Invest now, because you may not get the chance later [laughs].
Michael Smith- And like we said, we’re more than happy selling tapes out of the trunk, which is what we did for the longest time with the podcast. I go back to that Roots comparison, that kinship that we feel to The Roots, I would drive hundreds of miles to see The Roots in concert. I’m a loyal Roots follower. And so is Jemele…
Jemele Hill- Same here.
Michael Smith- We love them. We absolutely love them. But for whatever reason, they have not achieved the same commercial success that some other musical acts, or hip-hop acts specifically, have achieved. And that’s okay. Because, you know what? The people that check for The Roots, they absolutely love The Roots.
And so our short term goal— all that stuff that Jemele mentioned, we both want that and that would be great if it comes— if it doesn’t, though, if we’re never the hottest show on ESPN and not the best show in sports. Even if we’re never universally regarded as such, the people who love us, absolutely love us. And those are the people we care about.
When we record our own show, we’re not doing it for people to recognize us as better than x show or on par with y show. It doesn’t matter. And if you turn the channel at noon, that’s fine. If you can’t stand our show, that’s fine. There are people out there who absolutely love our show more than anything itself. Anything in life. And that’s the audience we are serving day to day. And whatever comes of that is great.
Hopefully more people come to our party. Look, we have this party going on from 12 to 1. We don’t know what you’re doing. Maybe you’ve heard about it, maybe you’re different. If you come, you won’t want to leave. And it’s not everybody’s type of party, and we understand that. We’re not playing everybody’s type of music. We’re not serving everybody’s type of food. It’s not your kind of crowd. That’s ok. The people who are there are trying to shut the joint down.
And as long as we keep putting on that party every day and our viewers are happy, much like I am when I listen to The Roots, if they drop an album, I’m downloading that album tomorrow and I’m buying it tomorrow. It doesn’t matter how many records they sell, I know I’m buying it. So that’s kind of our approach day to day. We’re just trying to be the best show we could be.
